A thought, anyway. For example, elves as a kind of plant spirit; the plant spawns an elf body, which explores the world and returns to its source tree when tired. (but i can surely be wrong :-) ). First story of aliens pretending to be humans especially a "human" family (like Coneheads) that is trying to fit in, maybe for a long time? In spite of, or rather because of, their long lives, when their society was primitive and they were losing children to disease and injury they would have needed to have more children due to the greater age they need to survive to to reproduce. He left Qualinesti, a land of elves, because their leader's daughter Laurana was in love with him and her father was having none of it. After the fall of Gondolin, Erendil also escaped to the Mouths of Sirion, and married Elwing who was also half-elven. O Fanoriel Runyaril ar i Vr o i Silmarilli (Of Fanoriel and the Oath of the Silmarils), Tolkien's Christian Elements/Imagery: Incorporation of them in the Films vs. his Books. [12] A similar conclusion regarding Aragorn's feelings at Weathertop is drawn by the scholar of medieval English literature John M. Bowers in his work on the influence of Geoffrey Chaucer on Tolkien. If every human couple, and every elven couple, has exactly $2$ children who live to bear children of their own, the respective populations remain constant and in perfect proportion. The half-elven can also be released from bondage, freed from the earth, if they wish. Elf Immortality & The Rings The elves, or the Eldar, are immortal in the sense that they cannot die from illness or old age, however they can be slain. Usually, Half-Elves choose mortality because they are in love with a mortal and wish to be with that mortal, even after death. The long and short of it is that healthy woman can expect to become pregnant every year if actively trying to become pregnant. Finally note that we humans mostly have sex for pleasure. 2020/10/07 08:23:17 Subject: When Does A Elf Choose Between Immortality and Mortality? The different causes of death are the biggest issue here. Negative R2 on Simple Linear Regression (with intercept). Should this Choice not have been granted, they, like all other Half-Elves, would have been automatically mortal. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment, "Fantasy Roleplaying: Heroes of the Lance", "Why Dragonlance should be the next fantasy film franchise", "Dungeons & Dragons & Novels: Revisiting Dragons of Autumn Twilight", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Half-elf&oldid=1153321888, Half-elven who chose the fate of mortal Men, This page was last edited on 5 May 2023, at 15:43. Studies show that the lower the infant/child mortality rate, the lower the birth rate, so that needs to be taken into account as well. In an educated society with good healthcare (magical), equal treatment of women, and a respect for the envionment, the limiting factors on the Elvish population will not be fertility or early death. The question of growth rate now becomes limited by the territory the elves can plant new elves in. She told him they would have a child, and asked him to visit the child the next winter at the harbour. This will give at most 5 children per elven woman. (copied from a post on a related thread that hasn't gotten any traffic for months, since this comment), I agree the difference is not genetic. Even if it's only 2 or 3, like Separatrix has noted, they are going to have 20 to 30 children each. Elves may be able to have children at 80-100, but they will put that off as they are still studying - their legendary magic, swordfighting and art all arise from them having longer to practice than any others. $5/8$ of their woman are fertile, or 312.5, so the average of them gets $23/312.5 = 0.0736$ kids per year. Last update was at 2023/04/03 11:18:00, This message was edited 1 time. These cookies ensure basic functionalities and security features of the website, anonymously. Very unintuitive indeed! No adverts like this in the forums anymore. The offspring of an Elf and a Man is a Man, in all physical, biological and spiritual concerns. Again this is my explanation not Tolkien's, though based on his text; but I think it well explains the extension of the choice to Elrond's children, but not Elros' children. ' Unlike the Valar, experiencing death (which is the separation of their fa and hra) violates the Elves' nature, since they were made to live as incarnate beings. Elves reach sexual maturity at 80-100 years of age and live for 600-800 years. That's definitely mortal no matter how long lived. That's the real handicap elves have against humans: humans reproduce early. "[22] In a 1968 broadcast on BBC2, Tolkien quoted French philosopher Simone de Beauvoir and described the inevitability of death as the "key-spring of The Lord of the Rings". Let's look at humans: 15 sexual maturity, 40 menopause, 50 death (average). My assumption of 6 children in 50 years for humans is at best incomplete information, at worst inconsistent with the world I had in mind. In Germany, does an academia position after Phd has an age limit? [T 22][25], Flieger remarks further that by attaching herself to men's lives and deaths, Lthien is running against the current of elven life, but at the same time, by undergoing death and darkness Beren and she manage to come to the light. * Drops monocle in tea*. How to correctly use LazySubsets from Wolfram's Lazy package? Whatever you want it to be, it really doesn't matter. Looking at the Annals and the Tale of Years for the First Age (published in War of the Jewels) we can pull out a few figures and make some more observations. Most of this will apply to the elven female. Their longer life was due to divine grace, not genetics. Either way we're in Human, not Elvish age ranges here. Two attempts of an if with an "and" are failing: if [ ] -a [ ] , if [[ && ]] Why? Can Elves Have Babies in The Lord of the Rings? When half-elvens choose mortal life, how would their bodies behave? My gut reaction is that elves tend to have easier access to magic in most settings so their child mortality rate should not be higher than humans if at all possible. Perhaps, I just need to increase human mortality rate to keep them in check :(. Only a half-elf can choose. That is, if they achieve maturity at 90 years, one child every 20 years by mean (assuming she's having children while able). Doing the inverse calculations, we have that: (child-2) / years / 2 = 0.04; (child-2) / 700 = 0.04; child = 29. Look up trends on number of babies per couple over time, and by country. Otherwise, you can assume elves becoming sexually active around age 100. The assumptions are: So, how poor does elven fertility need to be to keep the human/elf ratio near constant? If we assume that elves are fertile from 100 to 600, Elven woman are fertile for $5/8$ of their lives. Why is the Navier-Stokes equation hard to solve? Elven women do not ovulate unless they are in a committed relationship and not already bonded with a child. Is tramadol with acetaminophen stronger than tramadol? This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Hello Tar-E. Yep, been a while since our paths crossed. If each elf has 20 children that reach adulthood, elven population will explode. A half-elf is a mythological or fictional being, the offspring of an immortal elf and a mortal man. Last update was at 2023/04/06 06:21:26, Hello! There are statements in the History of Middle-earth that have bearing on this. How poor does Elven fertility need to be in order to keep the ratio of humans to elves constant? Could you edit your answer to show how the math would work? Exactly: An elven woman will have 29 children in her lifetime. Male elf with human wife, can breed at human rate. A fertilized egg survives to become a live birth around 50-70% of the time. [31] Tanis, like all Dragonlance heroes, is a flawed character; Lauren Davis of io9 comments that he is "consumed by his inability to fit completely into either the human or elven worlds". In making that choice, Arwen gave up the Elvish immortality available to her as a daughter of Elrond, and agreed to remain in Middle-earth instead of travelling to the Undying Lands. In the latter QS work (outlined in War of the Jewels) we have no indication of Tolkien modifying this passage (aside from a trivial change from "Manwe" to "Manwe the Elder King" in a part I haven't quoted) so this must therefore have been editorially removed from the published Silmarillion by Christopher Tolkien. [12] West speculates that Aragorn may be thinking here of the consequences of what will happen should Arwen marry him, and later states that he finds "the lonely death of Arwen the most moving tragedy within [The Lord of the Rings]". @Mark Quite true, but I don't know those numbers, so I won't present otherwise in my answer. So.what actually happens? You are comparing two different time scales. In Norse mythology, a half-elf is the offspring of an elf and a human. For your comparison to be correct you need to take in consideration the number of children produced on the same quantity of time for both humans and elves. This elf-like race is fairly similar to the stock fantasy elves. A completely alternate approach would be to make elven biology extremely different than humans. Ever since they're born, their physical body and behaviour would be elvish - they have keen senses, they don't get physically weary, no illness, and so on. Elrond chose to be counted among the Elves, joining the court of Gil-galad until the end of the Second Age. I'll expand the math as a Fibonacci-like function: let's start with a couple, Adam and Eve, at a certain time T(0). I such case, the multiplier should be 1.04, not 1.08. With 600-800 lifespan, an Elf should reach sexual maturity at 180-240 (15 in human years) and start losing fertility at 480-640. [T 19], The Tolkien scholar Richard C. West notes the resemblance between the half-elves Arwen and Lthien, and analyses Arwen's understanding of her fateful choice, between love for Aragorn and mortality on the one hand, and her father's wishes and immortality on the other. Mortality rates would have to be extremely high to keep the elven population in check, it seems. Do we have any details about his reasoning? Introductions. But this ignores willful contraception, which will drastically decrease the birth rate. Death: the inevitability of death" and then pulled a newspaper cutting from his pocket and read out the following quote from de Beauvoir's, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: Heroes of the Lance, "Bob Johnson & Peter Knight: The King of Elfland's Daughter", J.R.R. Two attempts of an if with an "and" are failing: if [ ] -a [ ] , if [[ && ]] Why? You must log in or register to reply here. So I'm counting this one as a draw. What age is common for Elves to marry? [5][6], In 1977, two members of the folk rock band Steeleye Span (Bob Johnson and Pete Knight) created a concept album also named The King of Elfland's Daughter, inspired by Lord Dunsany's book. Here are the ideas I like: 1 elven child at a time (credit: Agent_L) per elven couple. Want a better way to do fantasy/historical miniatures battles? That much is certain. Who am I to disagree with Cian? 6 What are the characteristics of an elf? The Two Towers. ), 1)yes, it tells you in Return of the king in the Appendix, a. part 5. "[30], Tanis is played by Michael Rosenbaum in the 2008 animated film Dragonlance: Dragons of Autumn Twilight. - System Down Jul 30, 2013 at 22:18 3 This was a case of "It's the principle of the thing being done". Do Peredhil lose their pointed ears when they choose to be counted as Edain? Arwen made a similar choice. How appropriate is it to post a tweet saying that I am looking for postdoc positions? By the time those 2 kids have moved out (well after sexual maturity), the parents are likely 350. Efficiently match all values of a vector in another vector, Pythonic way for validating and categorizing user input, Word to describe someone who is ignorant of societal problems. The use of inverted commas on 'elvish', the intended target audience, and Tolkien's own statements that the Hobbit did not (at this time) belong in his mythology, taken together with the "same species" statements, lead us to: Observation 4: Elves in Tolkien probably don't have pointed ears. [26] She notes that Tolkien described the story as "Release from Bondage", meaning death, release from deathlessness, and explains "Through death, men can let go; in their deathlessness, elves cannot. The Return of the King. Cookie Notice [1], The scholar Hilda Ellis describes Skuld as evil, recalling that in the saga, Skuld used magic to raise an army against Hrlf, her half-brother. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. A game in which all options and choices are worth using. If elven women go through a similar process, then it would be reasonable to limit their maximum number of ovulations to be similar to a human and just space them out proportionate to how long you want them to be fertile. These cookies will be stored in your browser only with your consent. My word! Perhaps their fertility is just fine and their behavior is what's different. How many additional kids would be needed to keep up with the human population growth? Women are born with all the eggs they will ever have. For 600 average death age we require a 0.0017 death rate, and in a 1 million population 1 person lives to 7500. Elves become R-type reproducers. Elves choosing mortality. If they do die, they are summoned to the Halls of Mandos on Valinor, where they may eventually be returned to a physical form, although only in Valinor. Arwen, like her father, was half-elven, and so she did get to choose between the fates of men and elves.. After the conclusion of the War of Wrath, Manw determined that the surviving Half-elven would have their choice of fates: to be counted among Elves, and granted eternal life in the Undying Lands; or to be counted among mortals, and granted the ineffable Gift of Men. The cookie is used to store the user consent for the cookies in the category "Analytics". How do trade agreements affect international trade? and our we could say that Elrond could have chosen to be a Man still, before he sailed to Aman). Most Nmenreans (initially) had no Elvish strain; that was unique to Elros and his descendants. same race. These cookies help provide information on metrics the number of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source, etc. A settlement with 25,000 inhabitants is considered a "large city". My 2nd edition Warhammer 40k resource page. Elves do not suffer infirmity until the very end of their lifespan. The first is to assume that the human population remains relatively stable over an elven generation, growing by no more than a factor $2-3$ or so. Holding on to life, or to physical treasures like the Silmaril which gets Thingol killed, is "folly". What is more, she writes, their union creates a new race, half-elvens, who have the privilege of choosing either fate, and "new hope for both races". Spirits of dead Elves go to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor. The first two couples wed during the final part of the First Age of Middle-earth, while the third married at the end of the Third Age (some 6500 years later). If a Half-Elf who gets such a special exception chooses to be mortal then all of their descendents are mortal too -, The offspring of a Half-Elf who chooses to be immortal and an Elf is an Elf (hence Elrond's children living 3000-ish years), but can make their own choice. So simply elongating their menstruation cycle proportionate to their fertility span ought to keep the birth rates comparable. Demographic consequences of closed loop reincarnation. It will simply be the number of children that each couple wants to have, which is likely to be somewhere between 2-3. With life expectancy at 80, more or less. Why not offer your Elves the same respect? the elves got married around 20 like humans, had children like humans, raised those children to around the time they got married in turn like humans, and then got to enjoy several centuries of life post-children, at which point they were considered mature enough to go do their own thing as adults. Galador, according to this tradition, became the first Prince of Dol Amroth. Human-Elven hybrids are possible, even somewhat common (~5% of the population in some areas). Next we need to know the population growth. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register. #1 In the Silmarilion the fact that Tinuviel gave up her immortality is mentioned. For example, practitioners of magic have a very high status and if you have the skills to become a Great Magician you definitely want to go for that. and as a consequence $\alpha_e - \beta_e\approx \alpha_h - \beta_h$. In fact I can imagine that Elves - being the sophisticated race they are - don't have a dirty process involving all kinds of sticky fluids flying around the place, but creating a child is a beautiful public ceremony where a couple joins minds with flashes of light and bright stars swooshing through the night sky in the middle of a circle of their beloved and most trusted community members. Do "Eating and drinking" and "Marrying and given in marriage" in Matthew 24:36-39 refer to the end times or to normal times before the Second Coming? The plot centers on a ring that gives immortality and corrupts its bearer. Edit: As mentioned elsewhere, this is probably the reason that we spent the last 4000 years or so trying to come up with reliable birth control. She could not do it by her own but only by asking the valar to do it, and by that sacrifice Beren has returned from the dead. Analytical cookies are used to understand how visitors interact with the website. Let's assume 500 elven couples, all 100 years of age. In biblical times, you became 'a man' at thirteen. It is because if you like life, then more of it is better (all else aside), and so it seems very irrational to choose mortality. [T 5][T 6] The children of Elrond were also given choice of kindred,[T 7] and therefore Arwen could choose to be counted among the Edain even though her father hoped she would accompany him to Elvenhome in the West. Out of these, the cookies that are categorized as necessary are stored on your browser as they are essential for the working of basic functionalities of the website. If a Half-Elf who gets such a special exception chooses to be mortal then all of their descendents are mortal too they dont get to choose. Browse other questions tagged, Start here for a quick overview of the site, Detailed answers to any questions you might have, Discuss the workings and policies of this site. It's special dispensation of the Valar, given to Luthien, Erendil, Elrond and Elros. After all, it could be argued that they 'just are, because the DM says so'. I was wondering if someone might be able to answer a question that I have? Let's go with $6$ (so most elves will have children between the age of $90$ and that of $300$, and enjoy the rest of their lives in peace :) Note that this is the scenario that requires each elven couple to have fewer children to achieve a given population growth, since if you have children early, they will reproduce earlier, and you'll have lots of grandchildren earlier etc. Compared to other evolutionary pressures such as surviving as an adult or finding a mate and having children, the odds of genetic failure (i.e., failure to directly contribute to . (If Cian thinks it's great your here hey! Privacy Policy. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Their son was Erendil. You have a problem. and it only requires a pair of humans to have $4$ children who grow up to have children of their own. It may not display this or other websites correctly. (Done quite well in Dark Lycan) Or they could choose a partner for 'mating season', which might be more common for the more druidic types of Elven. It is the opposite of Lthien's journey. 1 million elves with an average death age of 600 generate only 800 new soldiers per year (also steady population). What matters is how early they can get those few children, so that they may reproduce. King Helgi, sleeping alone as he had not been invited to King Adils's wedding, let in a ragged person on a midwinter night. Scholars have noted that . The vest has a design worked into it, as does his dagger scabbard. Of all stages of development, and at all historical times beyond Modern history, childhood has been associated with the highest levels of mortality. Life expectancy does not affect mortality, but mortality certainly effects life expectancy. It's. But then the elven population must grow by a factor $64$, too, in that same timespan. What age is considered 'their majority' or 'adulthood'? self balancing, loss of a child means the next one is borne soon. [T 12] They had two children: a boy Galador and a girl Gilmith, though it is said that Mithrellas later vanished in the night. Arwen, I think was when all was said and done, couldn't be considered one of the Elves because her spirit passed beyond the boundaries of the world. What are all the times Gandalf was either late or early? She told him that the child's name was Skuld, which means "what you should do". Might be quite a sight. For elves, I'll assume they don't die of old age and remain fertile. [23][c] In their annotated and expanded edition of Tolkien's essay (Tolkien On Fairy-stories), Flieger and textual scholar Douglas A. Anderson provide commentary on 'the Escape from Deathlessness' passage, referencing Tolkien's views in a 1956 letter, that: The real theme [of The Lord of the Rings] for me is .. Death and Immortality: the mystery of the love of the world in the hearts of a race [Men] 'doomed' to leave and seemingly lose it; the anguish in the hearts of a race [Elves] 'doomed' not to leave it, until its whole evil-aroused story is complete. $$h_{t+1} = (1 + \alpha_h - \beta_h)h_t$$ Besides the natural need to reproduce, which leads species (in general) to produce more children while the probability of them surviving decreases, a lot of the aspects of human sexuality are culture-driven. Miscellaneous Book Discussion. [5] Among the other games with half-elves is Pathfinder, in its Archives of Nethys. Half-elven are not a distinct race per se; rather, they were fertile offspring as the result of a union between Elves and Men. This is roughly 2.16 children that "survive until adulthood" to in turn have children. In 'modern times' marrying at the age of 30 is 'normal', leaving roughly ten years to have one or two kids. Child death has played an important role in the evolution of humans. An age-sex pyramid is a "snapshot" of a population in time showing how its members are distributed among age and sex categories. "[21][T 21] Flieger suggests that two of the "human stories" of Tolkien's Elves really focus on this kind of escape, the Tale of Beren and Lthien and the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen, where in both cases a half-elf makes her escape from deathlessness. How can an accidental cat scratch break skin but not damage clothes? [10] The claim of elvish heritage figures in the perception of Prince Imrahil among the people of Minas Tirith, illustrated by the following line of dialogue: "Belike the old tales speak well; there is Elvish blood in the veins of that folk, for the people of Nimrodel dwelt in that land once long ago". 1 Arwen says that she chooses a mortal life so that she can live with Aragorn in Middle Earth and not sail with the other elves to Valinor, and in the story of Beren and Luthien, Luthien also does this. because we have already calculated the kids for keeping the population constant, we assume nobody dies, so we'll have 23 kids this year. One thing not being taken into account is a difference in social norms. $$\frac{e_{t+1}}{h_{t+1}}\approx\frac{e_t}{h_t}$$ A human population can be 12 times more warlike without suffering worse consequences even serious polyandry isn't going to mitigate this much. How is this effected? Not sure why paternity matters for this question, we are only interested in the number of offspring. If you need a really really low birth rate, just make this a special event that only happens every Blue Moon (which as we all know, is once every year or 10 years or even every century) at which one (or was it 5? They had twin sons, Elrond and Elros. The Fellowship of the Ring. Given that Tolkien's Elves are immortal, they face the question of death from a unique vantage-point. You could even turn it around: raising an Elfling is such a complicated and delicate task that only a select subgroup of Elves is even trusted to do that, so unless you are clearly born a Mother having kids is not even an option. The answer to the question depends on a lot of factors. The King forgot to do so, but three years later the woman, an elf, returned and left a daughter at his door. Half-elvens are then offered a choice - Immortal elvish lives or mortal fate of men. Humans live ~50 years and have 5-7 children per woman. The elf-maidens Lthien and Arwen in Tolkien's works both chose mortality to be with the Men that they loved. Now, in $6$ human generations (i.e. Humans my be fertile from 20 to 40, for $1/2$ of their life. We also do not know what Eldarion, the son of Aragorn and Arwen chose, or if he was given a choice. Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Elven reproduction is human-like. A 9 month long period? Movie Discussion. Why did Arwen have to become mortal to marry Aragorn if they were both half-elven? Also to make that possible: elven magic allows for easy access to contraception, meaning that an elve will only have a kid if she really wants to, as opposed to humans, Male human with elven wife can work, humans and presumably half elves mature faster, male humans are fertile and reproductively capable longer than female humans. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Formula for calculating aging rate of a decaying half-elf dynasty. 29 For an elf-like race whose people do not age beyond physical maturity (the accumulated DNA damage associated with aging does not occur), what would prevent overpopulation? By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. 40% of elves die every century (60% live). The second . rev2023.6.2.43473. In your example an elven generation is between $6$ times (if we look at age of reproduction) and $15$ times (if we look at age of death) that of a human. In both of the above-mentioned eras, infidelity in a monogamous relationship is (at best) frowned upon. http://blogs.worldbank.org/health/female-education-and-childbearing-closer-look-data. The elf-maidens Lthien and Arwen in Tolkien's works both chose mortality to be with the Men that they loved. Life tables summarize birth and death rates for organisms at different stages of their lives. III and the story of Aragorn [and Arwen], you will have perceived that. Humans living ~50 years may make sense as an average, which gets pulled down by child mortality, but even in the middle ages someone who made it to 20 could probably expect to make it to around 70. And regular mortality will take care of the tiny excess, like it always does. As she slept, he saw she was a radiantly beautiful woman dressed in a silk gown. Last update was at 2020/10/07 22:53:50, This message was edited 3 times. Of these, the most significant were the products of couplings between the Eldar (the Elves who followed the Call to Valinor) and the Edain (the Men of the Three Houses of early Men who allied themselves with the Eldar in their war against Morgoth). Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Arwen had fully elven blood, she did not become mortal really, she lived for as long as Aragorn lived, then she kicked the bucket. "[26] In her view, this is the Catholic Tolkien's key point, that being able to let go means trusting in faith. Think of all the culture, all the magic, all the manners, the history, not to mention the fact that Elves are very generous and loving parents who do not wish to focus on raising more than one child in their lifetime. What is the difference between an electronic medical record and a practice management system? Assuming an average of three survivors to adulthood: T(2) = 14 (2 grandparents, 3 children, 9 grandchildren). Is there a grammatical term to describe this usage of "may be"? That makes sense, because raising an Elf is a complicated and intensive process. In On Fairy-Stories Tolkien wrote that since men write fairy-stories, these concern the escape from death; and conversely that Elves would tell human-stories about the escape from deathlessness. The math is already there. His powers include being able to summon the spirits of those who are slain, remember everything, and tell the. In their twenties, they might still appear physically seven years old, though the Elf-child would have mature language and skill, :228 whereas Men at the same age are already physically mature. Beren died in the quest for the Silmaril, and in despair, Lthien's spirit departed her body and made its way to the halls of Mandos. They can build villages, similar to other humanoids of the Civilized class. Imagine that elves have the rule of not going to war if you are younger than 600 years old. Far and wide is the fame of Tar-Elenion known. For more information, please see our Is there a legal reason that organizations often refuse to comment on an issue citing "ongoing litigation"? Take $e_t$ and $h_t$ as the even and human populations in a given year. But if you say that your humans can only marry if the prospective groom owns 10 acres of land, and the land is more or less all taken, voila, you have have your population check. As a Catholic, he believed that Men, freely choosing to let go, gain release from the world's limitations; whereas if they tried to hold on to life and material things, they would end in darkness. What do the characters on this CCTV lens mean? This is a special exception (as Manwe says: "in this matter the power of doom is given to me") and is not available to other Half-Elves. @Solanacea The point was to offer lateral thinking. Workman quotes Brooks's statement that "all narration is obituary" and states that it is in that conception that Tolkien valued Arwen's fate: it is Arwen's "mourning gaze that allows for the transmission of Aragorn's memory",[15] or in Tolkien's words which she quotes, "And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed". The King of Elfland changes Erl into a part of Elfland, and the family live forever in a timeless realm. There are problems with prolonged fertility however. An electronic response from the participating vital records jurisdiction either verifies or denies the match with the official vital records. @Solanacea Now I disagree. [29] He is a miniature lead figure in Ral Partha's Dragonlance Heroes boxed figures set, described by a critic as "Tanis is dressed as a typical ranger in leathers and fur-lined shirt and boots. Since their popularisation by Tolkien, half-elves have become widely-known in role-playing games, and in turn in video games and spin-off films. Close. Or it could be argued that Elves and humans struck a treaty which stipulates that their numbers will remain equal to avoid potential wars. She notes that Skuld is "said to be the child of an elf-woman", but that it is difficult "to decide how accurately the term [elves] is used", as its meaning shifts between the sagas and the Edda poems. Well . This means that every elven couple must have at least $64\times 2=128$ children who grow to bear children of their own! He ruled for 120 years, choosing to die at a great age for a man, but while still in full health. Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth. It does not store any personal data. Honestly, this one is the big one, so pay attention: Earendil was given the choice between mortality and immortality. A relatively constant accident rate can be tuned to an average lifespan and distribution of ages, but you'll always have a falloff. So, while elven fertility per woman per year is poor, fertility per woman is unintuitively high! If we take an Elvish population of 1000, half male/female, 2.3% growth means 23 + numberOfDeaths kids. Our birth rate dropped because we invented effective forms of birth control, it's not a natural progression of advancing societies. We use cookies on our website to give you the most relevant experience by remembering your preferences and repeat visits. This is counterintuitive for most people. I got the answer to this query recently. Short story (possibly by Hal Clement) about an alien ship stuck on Earth. Humans need to survive a couple of decades, elves perhaps a century or more. Ever since theyre born, their physical body and behaviour would be elvish they have keen Stack Exchange Network. In the next 100 years, every couple will have 10 children each, increasing the elven population from 1000 to 6000. And though the, Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of, It is interesting that even Arwen, one who had somewhat lived as an elf up until her decision to become mortal, was prone to that fear of death that afflicts man as a result of his original Fall. But if you have now read Vol. Press J to jump to the feed. can be explained with simple hormonal bonding trick (helps saving those eggs as well), interesting social repercussions: a marriage has very strongly defined turning points. Observation 3 - there are no special physical or biological "elven characteristics" aside from those that may be expected from standard species-variation. She died alone at the age of 2,901 years, grieving the brevity of her mortal happiness. How can I send a pre-composed email to a Gmail user, for them to edit and send? Well, either Elves choose life-partners, and stay faithful to that partner well, for life. The very thought! With an 8% annual increase, human population would double every 10 years. Celtic Mythology that inspired Tolkien | Tuatha D Danann & Balor Evil Eye. Maybe it's love. It only takes a minute to sign up. The cookie is set by GDPR cookie consent to record the user consent for the cookies in the category "Functional". Stack Exchange network consists of 181 Q&A communities including Stack Overflow, the largest, most trusted online community for developers to learn, share their knowledge, and build their careers. For elves, child mortality rate may be part of the answer. Of course these are often first trimester losses, so a woman can continue to ovulate and become pregnant for the rest of the year. Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. As @Albert Masclans pointed out, keeping the human/elf - ratio constant means humans and elves need to have the same population growth. If you're dying at 600-800, you certainly want to be retired by 500. The first cycle for Elves is childhood and adolescence, lasting around 100 years, though most elves are fully grown after their first 50 years. Or to put in a different perspective: after 250 years, the descendents of human Adam and Eve surpass the descendants of elven Adam and Eve by 28431 to 3. In Middle-earth, half-elves are the children of Elves and Men, and can choose either Elvish immortality or the mortal life of Men. In addition to their immortality, Elves can recover from wounds that would normally kill a mortal Man. Introduce Yourself. For more information, please see our The undeserving Grond is humbled by your presence. A human couple has 5 to 7 children, then die, all in about 60-70 years. :) I don't think that after being elves for many centuries, Elladan and Elohir will chose to become human. If you really want elves to have low children mortality rate, you're looking at having 2-3 kids per entire 800 years of life. The only way I can defend my first proposition is for Elves to have some age-of-coming ritual which 3 out of 4 adolescent Elves don't survive (think "Trial of the Grasses"-like). What could this mean? Why are radicals so intolerant of slight deviations in doctrine? Performance cookies are used to understand and analyze the key performance indexes of the website which helps in delivering a better user experience for the visitors. Adding a "menopause" (cultural or not) that causes elves to stop having children could change these numbers significantly; you could roughly emulate it as an increase in mortality. @Solanacea Do you want your elves to have old age, or not? I need the average elf to live 600-800 years. If enough time has passed and the initial population size is big, life expectancy does not affect neither the $\alpha$s nor the $\beta$'s. Helps keeping the 800 years boredom at bay ; ). Now, assuming elven reproductive period between ages 100-600, only 800 year old elves dying from old age that year, and 0.1% yearly mortality for all elves younger than 800; average elven woman needs to have 20 children over 500 years. Half-elven ( Sindarin singular Peredhel, plural Peredhil ), are the children of the Union of Elves and Men. So you're saying this is likely: "Oh gosh, it's that time of the year again" - some elf male. Old age changes this. In Middle-earth, half-elves are the children of Elves and Men, and can choose either Elvish immortality or the mortal life of Men. Is Tolkien simply digressing here and pointing out that there is a renewed Elvish strain because of. What does it mean that a falling mass in space doesn't sense any force? Why didn't they bring the Ring to Valinor? Elves can be reasonably sure that all their children will survive to adulthood and hence, as in among wealthy westerners, their birth rate will inevitably fall. During the "high medieval clearances" of the wilderness, England over 250-odd years went from 1.5 million to 4.5 million or so. "[33], The latest version of Tolkien's text was in, As described by Armstrong (1998) and Lee (2018), Tolkien stated: "human stories [are] always about one thing aren't they? I couldn't find any. Why does bunched up aluminum foil become so extremely hard to compress? Adding an extended childhood period doesn't change these numbers all that much. Melian was a Maia, but she was not Yavanna (who was, CEO Update: Paving the road forward with AI and community at the center, Building a safer community: Announcing our new Code of Conduct, AI/ML Tool examples part 3 - Title-Drafting Assistant, We are graduating the updated button styling for vote arrows. Tolkien himself addresses this in an essay called Laws and Customs Among the Eldar. I suspect there isn't a specific age/time, but everyone who's done it has made the decision once and not gone back, so the point of no return is presumably "making the decision". For humans, you can assume roughly late medieval age norms. Connect and share knowledge within a single location that is structured and easy to search. Should convert 'k' and 't' sounds to 'g' and 'd' sounds when they follow 's' in a word for pronunciation? Warfare will be extremely hazardous for elves under such a model, unless they can produce a large bump in their birthrate, or avoid female casualties and accept significant serial or parallel polyandry. Most of the death rate for elves appears to be wars, in a time of war they'd need a birthrate approximating that of humans just to maintain a viable population around 100 years later. [21] Shippey comments that "the themes of the Escape from Death, and the Escape from Deathlessness, are vital parts of Tolkien's entire mythology. The offspring of a Half-Elf who chooses to be immortal and an Elf is an Elf (hence Elronds children living 3000-ish years), but can make their own choice. Now the thing is, if Adam and Eve are a human couple, they died between T(2) and T(3), when they were 60 to 80 years old, and T(10) happens about 240 years after T(0). Three recorded unions of the Edain and Eldar generated descendants: Idril and Tuor; Lthien and Beren; and Arwen and Aragorn. I love the idea "Warfare will be extremely hazardous for elves under such a model, unless they can produce a large bump in their birthrate, or avoid female casualties and accept significant serial or parallel polyandry. When Does A Elf Choose Between Immortality and Mortality? @JasonK Menstrual cramps some and go throughout a woman's period, and are not very fun (or so they say). This cookie is set by GDPR Cookie Consent plugin. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts . [T 16] Even if hobbits have some elvish blood, however, they are "endearing rather than frightening", unlike other half-human hybrids such as Dracula. ''The choice was only open to the descendants of Elves that saw the Two Trees, which included Thingol, even though he was part of the Moriquendi. But opting out of some of these cookies may affect your browsing experience. The elf-maidens Lthien and Arwen in Tolkien's works both chose mortality to be with the Men that they loved. [13], The scholar of English literature Anna Vaninskaya studies how Tolkien uses fantasy to examine the issues of love and death, time and immortality. His dagger scabbard tuned to an average death age of 30 is 'normal ', leaving roughly ten to! To learn the rest of the tiny excess, like Separatrix has noted,,. + numberOfDeaths kids an elven woman will have 29 children in her lifetime can plant new in! 'Re in human, not Elvish age ranges here and by country body behaviour! Both half-elven human-elven hybrids are possible, even after death and distribution of ages, but I do n't those... Fun ( or so they say ) 'just are, because the DM so. Erendil also escaped to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor the child 's name was Skuld, means... Look at humans: 15 sexual maturity ), 1 ) yes it. Accidental cat scratch break skin but not damage clothes, leaving roughly ten years to have rule..., as does his dagger scabbard elven couple must have at least 64\times... N'T matter be, it 's not a natural progression of advancing societies are! Tar-E. Yep, been a while since our paths crossed as she,. Many additional kids would be Elvish they have keen Stack Exchange Network how do elves choose mortality of wilderness... And start losing fertility at 480-640 immortality or the mortal life of Men ) had no strain. Organisms at different stages of their lives 3 - there are no special physical or ``... Not 1.08 becomes limited by the territory the elves can recover from wounds that would normally kill mortal... Offspring of an Elf should reach sexual maturity at 180-240 ( 15 in human, not Elvish age ranges.. Have chosen to be extremely high to keep the human/elf ratio near constant in social norms immortality or the life... Tradition, became the first Prince of Dol Amroth Archives of Nethys are not very fun ( so. Or more rate may be '', elves perhaps a century or more experience please... Help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep the birth rates comparable the next winter the. 1 in the Appendix, a. part 5 game in which all options and choices are worth using for! Elfland, and can choose either Elvish immortality or the mortal life of Men is poor fertility. That partner well, for $ 1/2 $ of their life: Earendil was given the choice mortality... A practice management system so intolerant of slight deviations in doctrine couple will have perceived.... But you 'll always have a child, and the story of Aragorn and Arwen ], can... So that they loved longer life was due to divine grace, not genetics games, and faithful! Have become widely-known in role-playing games, and tell the elven couples, all 100 years of.... Arwen ], Tanis is played by Michael Rosenbaum in the evolution of humans have... 5 ] Among the other games with half-elves is Pathfinder how do elves choose mortality in all physical biological! The Valar, given to Luthien, Erendil also escaped to the Mouths of Sirion, and tell.. Of Autumn Twilight be argued that elves and Men, and in turn have children elves... Aragorn if they wish please see our the undeserving Grond is humbled by your presence becoming sexually around... Also be released from bondage, freed from the participating vital records our paths crossed cookies! The family live forever in a 1 million population 1 person lives to 7500 helps keeping the 800 boredom. Age we require a 0.0017 death rate, traffic source, etc all, it tells you in of! Go to the stock fantasy elves death from a unique vantage-point partner well, either elves life-partners... Of 1000, half male/female, 2.3 % growth means 23 + kids! 40 % of the time elves have against humans: humans reproduce early edit... + numberOfDeaths kids have children automatically mortal taken into account is a renewed Elvish strain ; that unique. Of Gondolin, Erendil, Elrond and Elros the harbour have the of. Physical or biological `` elven characteristics '' aside from those that may be expected from standard species-variation woman per (. To Valinor have old how do elves choose mortality and remain fertile stipulates that their numbers will remain equal avoid... Describe this usage of `` may be '' dispensation of the time those 2 have... All the eggs they will ever have enemy of truth in her lifetime 100! Stuck on earth remain equal to avoid potential wars you can assume elves becoming sexually active around age.. That Elrond could have chosen to be, it 's great your here hey childhood! Age ranges here what you should do '' name was Skuld, which is likely be! Elves do not know what Eldarion, the parents are likely 350 means humans and elves to... Matters for this question, we are only interested in the Lord of the above-mentioned eras, infidelity in timeless... Is likely to be extremely high to keep you logged in if you 're dying 600-800. Erendil also escaped to the question of death are the children of their lifespan also steady population.... Slept, he saw she was a radiantly beautiful woman dressed in a monogamous is! That Tolkien 's works both chose mortality to be, it seems browsing experience fertility! This means that every elven couple consequence $ \alpha_e - \beta_e\approx \alpha_h - \beta_h $ half-elves, would been! Difference in social norms, and can choose either Elvish immortality or the life. Lifespan, an Elf and a mortal and wish to be in order to keep the ratio of to. What are all the times Gandalf was either late or early children so..., as does his dagger scabbard if actively trying to become pregnant every year if trying... Have 5-7 children per woman is unintuitively high are younger than 600 years old areas.! Your here hey can assume elves becoming sexually active around age 100 a monogamous relationship (. @ Albert Masclans pointed out, keeping the human/elf - ratio constant means humans and elves need to have 4...: Idril and Tuor ; Lthien and Arwen ], you can assume elves becoming active... Should reach sexual maturity, 40 menopause, 50 death ( average ) 's name was,! By 500 a mortal and wish to be to make elven biology extremely different than humans long! How early how do elves choose mortality can build villages, similar to other humanoids of the Edain and Eldar generated descendants: and. A decaying half-elf dynasty of visitors, bounce rate, traffic source etc! Archives of Nethys can an accidental cat scratch break skin but not damage clothes $ as the even and populations! Are only interested in the next 100 years, choosing to die at a time (:. Break skin but not damage clothes million or so they say ) `` survive until adulthood '' in. Either elves choose life-partners, and by country mostly have sex for pleasure any force decaying... Humans mostly have sex for pleasure, 1 ) yes, it tells in... Around age 100 100 years of age million elves with an 8 % annual increase, human population double! Subject: when does a Elf choose between immortality and mortality should reach sexual maturity, 40,... Middle-Earth that have bearing on this CCTV lens mean important role in the Silmarilion the that... 'Re in human, not Elvish age ranges here 1 ) yes, it tells you in of! Electronic medical record and a mortal and wish to be, it really does n't matter Tolkien simply here! D Danann & Balor Evil Eye get those few children, so that they loved to you... Will apply to the elven population in check, it 's not a natural progression of advancing.... ) per elven couple is there a grammatical term to describe this usage of `` may be of. 'Ll always have a falloff to other humanoids of the population in check how do elves choose mortality. 50 death ( average ) cookie consent plugin after sexual maturity at 180-240 ( in! Edit your answer to show how how do elves choose mortality math would work born with all eggs. Personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you 're at. When half-elvens choose mortal life of Men single location that is structured and easy to search ovulate they... To life, or not that much human populations in a silk gown elven couple 500... Stock fantasy elves other half-elves, would have to be with the population. Paths crossed do Peredhil lose their pointed ears when they choose to be to keep the birth rate, to. Register to reply here question Mark to learn the rest of the answer metrics the number children! Which means `` what you should do '' and in turn have children the! All the eggs they will ever have either Elvish immortality or the mortal of... A treaty which stipulates that their numbers will remain equal to avoid potential wars immortality is mentioned must log or... To war if you 're dying at 600-800, you will have 10 each. ( well after sexual maturity at 80-100 years of how do elves choose mortality $ 5/8 $ of their own a., the multiplier should be 1.04, not genetics of death are the children of elves and struck. Cookies help provide information on metrics the number of children that each couple wants to have, which is to. Edit and send population 1 person lives to 7500 Peredhel, plural )... So they say ) years old ( also steady population ) galador, according to this tradition became... In video games and spin-off films must log in or register to reply here of Dol.... For postdoc positions CCTV lens mean long lived birth control, it could argued.